Johannesburg...

squirrel · Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 74 Location: Bucharest, Romania

I would like to visit it... has any of you guys been there? Any insights?

Laura · Joined: 16 May 2004 Posts: 446 Location: San Francisco

My husband went a few years ago on business and found that even the locals say there's nothing to see or do in Johannesburg, it's a big industrial city. He likes to just get out and walk around and people watch, yet when he was there people told him not to do that, that it wasn't safe. I hope things have improved! Anyway, everyone told him to go down to Cape Town, or out to the various National Parks. South Africa itself is supposed to be completely beautiful and amazing, it's just Johannesburg that's a mess, so don't get the wrong idea from one city.

squirrel · Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 74 Location: Bucharest, Romania

that is also what a friend told me, Laura... he said Cape Town is beautiful, and Johannesburg sucks!

cl5814 · Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 9

Guys and Girls, i am from south africa.... ask if you want any specific information. I grew up in Kempton Park and studied at a university in Johannesburg so i am familiar with that part of South Africa.

Basically, i always advise people to stay away from the big cities in south africa, it is full of crime and violence. If you intend to visit the cities, try to have a local with you. The typical american does not understand when i say crime and violence..... South Africa is a country full of crime and violence. "Petty" crimes do not make it into news anymore - it is a daily occurence and thus not really news. In contrast, the beaches and national parks are beautiful. Going to the beach in america is going to a big salt water lake........ no waves to play or surf in. The beaches in Durban and Cape Town (cold water though) are really great and i can stay in the water for hours - riding/playing in the waves.

It takes forever to get to Johannesburg/Cape Town from USA - you can fly direct with South African Airways from Atlanta or JFK - i highly recommend this - and the shortest flight is 15 hours, most likely 17 hours with 1 refuelling stop on the way. If your body can't take that much flying - mine can't - you can fly via Europe using Virgin Atlantic, British Airways, Lufthansa etc. but will have a 8-10 hour wait for the connecting flight to Johannesburg. Johannesburg has a wonderful international airport, Cape Town airport sucks. Johannesburg International airport is not actually in Johannesburg, but in Kempton Park, Johannesburg being about 20 miles from Kempton Park.

There is no public transportation available in south Africa..... not even taxis. Taxis are not safe for anyone, especially if you are not from south africa and your accent is a dead give away. You will have to rent a car and drive on the "wrong" (left) side of the road. If you drive, always have directions with you, never just get in the car and drive - it is dangerous, hijackings are very common.

Most people can speak and/or understand english. South Africa has 11 official languages, english being one. The other major language is Afrikaans - dutch like sound to it. Oh yes, and the english is a british english - spelling and spoken language. The southern part of the country tends to be english and the farther north you go, the more Afrikaans you are likely to encounter. The stuff you buy in the store will most likely be labeled in Afrikaans and English.

What time of the year would be best to visit ? Well, December is the big summer vacation season and everybody heads to the beach for the holiday. Flights tend to be booked by June/July, so book months in advance especially if you want to fly direct. If you prefer to visit the national parks, then the winter season (June/July) is very popular as the Kruger National Park is located in the northern part of South Africa. Cape Town and the wine route area are most probably the best just after new year - february/march. South Africa produces world quality wines and you definitely want to visit a winery in the Cape Town area. South Africa does not get snow - except in the mountains - so the winters are not that cold either. Other than drought, we have no other natural disasters.

I am not trying to discourage anyone from visiting, i think if you have the chance you should do it. You definitely want to keep the information i have mentioned in mind. I have heard people call America the rainbow nation, come see South Africa - the true rainbow nation.

squirrel · Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 74 Location: Bucharest, Romania

interesting info on South Africa... and what do the authorities do about crime? what is the reason for this high incidence of crime?

cl5814 · Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 9

Squirrel,

Money is the root of all evil things. Those that do not have seem to think that those that have, needs to share what they have. You don't even have to give it to them, they will come and get it at night - whatever they want (this is a joke on breaking in to your property and stealing )

You think the police can do much about it.......... well, you can't exactly put everybody that commits a crime in prison, can you ? you will end up with more people in jail, spending taxpayers money, than out in the streets. Some of them might want to end up in jail, at least they don't have to worry about food or accommodation, they get it for free.

The usual protection for your house and belongings in South AFrica are ...... safety bars in front of all windows, big dogs in the yard, high fences around your property, security system installed, security doors in front of every outside door, not to mention any guns you might have on you - you are a prisoner in your own home. This is not just applicable to the rich...but is standard on almost all property.

The last time i went back to south africa, i joked that you could buy just about anything on the street corners. Don't know how much of the stuff that they sell was stolen somewhere and how much is truly stuff they bought to resell on the street corner. At least part of the population is trying to work for money, but the majority just want to beg for it, or worse steal it. Apparently the beggers make good money as i have heard incredible stories of beggers making good money, turning down jobs, because why work if you could just beg for money. That is the sad part.

Whenever i had someone beg for money from me, i always had them do a chore for me, so that they associate work with money and not just begging for it - some were willing to do it, others not. And then whenever i could i would rather give them food with less money as that money might go to the liquor store and not the grocery store/school.

Why don't/can't they work - well, if you burn down your schools, that clearly shows the attitude towards education. Unfortunately the people that burn down the schools are exactly the people that needs to be educated. Most people understand that you need to be able to read and write in order to get a job, unfortunately not everybody in South Africa has come to that conclusion just yet. I think this is a big reason why HIV is such a problem as well.

But there is hope for the country, 10 years ago, we had no McDonalds in the country, today you can easily find McDonalds everywhere. The south africans just love it, it is that little piece of America that most of them will never get to see/experience. We have other restaurant chains that sell burgers and fries, but it has to be McDonalds according to the McDonald-addicts because it represents America.

The country will also host the 2010 (??) soccer olympics... it will take some hard work to make that a successful event, but the country has the potential. I think 50 years from now, things might be a whole lot different - hopefully a lot better.

South Africa is lucky to have celebrities like Charlize Theron (actress), Retief Goosen (golf player), Michael Wentink (ballroom dancer) that shows that despite the conditions in South AFrica, if you work for what you want in life, you can get it. Unfortunately, there was/is still a brain drain in the country where South Africans are leaving for Australia, America and Europe to make a better living, the exact kind of people you need in South AFrica to make a better future for the country. Can you blame the people for wanting to leave......myself included...... you decide.

David · Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Posts: 162

Of all the places I could go in Africa, definitely South Africa is where I would like to go one day. The pictures I've seen make me think it's a beautiful place. Also, I've noticed some beautiful people from South Africa too (lots of blonde hair).

I didn't realize there was a problem with crime, but I hope it's improving. Are there some cities that are safer?

cl5814 · Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 9

David wrote: Of all the places I could go in Africa, definitely South Africa is where I would like to go one day. The pictures I've seen make me think it's a beautiful place. Also, I've noticed some beautiful people from South Africa too (lots of blonde hair).

I didn't realize there was a problem with crime, but I hope it's improving. Are there some cities that are safer?

David,

I think most of the tourists that have been involved in some sort of crime, did not expect to be a crime target or wasn't aware of the high crime rate.

The real south africa (not the pictures) are even more awesome than the pictures you are seeing.
Yes and no for safer cities. The crime, violence are pretty much everywhere - especially the touristy spots. Your foreign accent unfortunately identifies you as a target for crime. As long as you know there is a problem with crime and apply common sense and be ultra conservative with your safety, you can go anywhere in South Africa. My 2 lengthy posts should be viewed as informative/educational and not as a scare off. Try to be a "local" by not unfolding your big map of south africa in the middle of the street or counting your money where everyone can see it and you will be fine. Ask for directions/advice at the hotel or airport or travel agent store or any business dressed individual and not just anyone on the street that might identify you as a tourist and thus a crime target. Again, just travel common sense. People in general are very friendly and helpful..... and at the risk of sounding like a racist, if you have to ask, try to ask a white person. You have a 99 % chance that the white person speaks english and most likely be more helpful than the black person whose first language is definitely not english...well, maybe a 10 % chance that it is english. You might use words in english that is not typical british/south african english and thus confusing to someone who can only speak minimum english anyway - the black people are mostly multi-lingual, but english tend not to be their best language to help out a foreigner. There is a big culture difference between the white and blacks and you have to live in South Africa in order to truly understand the culture difference. Again, this is not a racist comment, just a fact of life. My advice of asking for advice from a white person is the same, whether YOU are white or black.
I will advise you to leave any expensive/valuable stuff in your foreign country home especially jewelry that can get ripped off you - and i mean this literally ripped off you. ( South Africa is also famous for the gold and diamonds it produces.....you might want to stop by a few jewelry stores, even if just to look at it )
Pretoria has some historical places to visit and i tend to think it is a bit safer than Johannesburg. Cape Town is a big tourist attraction spot (so you have the crime around you ) and rightfully so, but a place you have to visit. Most people want to visit South AFrica to see the "big 5" animals. For that you most probably want to head to Kruger National PArk in the northern part of the country. Skukuza is a popular destination (touristy) in the park, you would want to avoid spending all your time in Skukuza, you can mix with the locals at the other "destinations" in the park, for half the price. You tend to see more wildlife away from the crowded people spots like Skukuza.
The term touristy implies jacked up prices and a lot more crime..... like travel in any other part of the world, your best sightseeing is done off the beaten path....

As you can see i love talking about South Africa, so please ask if you have any more questions...

Jonathan · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 185

cl5814 wrote: South Africa is lucky to have celebrities like Charlize Theron (actress), Retief Goosen (golf player), Michael Wentink (ballroom dancer) that shows that despite the conditions in South AFrica, if you work for what you want in life, you can get it. Unfortunately, there was/is still a brain drain in the country where South Africans are leaving for Australia, America and Europe to make a better living, the exact kind of people you need in South AFrica to make a better future for the country. Can you blame the people for wanting to leave......myself included...... you decide.
As of last year Michael and his partner (Beata, originally from Lithuania) now live in New York and represent the U.S.A.

In his public letter he said that, as much of an honor as it had been for them (he and Beata) to represent South Africa, he did not feel that the country had really continued to support them. Sad, but true... :(

cl5814 · Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 9

Jonathan wrote: cl5814 wrote: South Africa is lucky to have celebrities like Charlize Theron (actress), Retief Goosen (golf player), Michael Wentink (ballroom dancer) that shows that despite the conditions in South AFrica, if you work for what you want in life, you can get it. Unfortunately, there was/is still a brain drain in the country where South Africans are leaving for Australia, America and Europe to make a better living, the exact kind of people you need in South AFrica to make a better future for the country. Can you blame the people for wanting to leave......myself included...... you decide.
As of last year Michael and his partner (Beata, originally from Lithuania) now live in New York and represent the U.S.A.

In his public letter he said that, as much of an honor as it had been for them (he and Beata) to represent South Africa, he did not feel that the country had really continued to support them. Sad, but true... :(

Yes, i thought about it when i typed his name........ he is still from South Africa and i think spend most of his time there before his move to USA. That South Africa is not really committed to ballroom dancing doesn't surprise me.

Jonathan · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 185

cl5814 wrote:
Yes, i thought about it when i typed his name........ he is still from South Africa and i think spend most of his time there before his move to USA. That South Africa is not really committed to ballroom dancing doesn't surprise me.
He had actually spent most of his time, before moving to NYC, living in London... but you are certainly right, he's still from South Africa, as have been several other notable ballroom dancers.

on_way_to_fame · Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Posts: 15

wow...that was tons and tons of informtion on africa...now i can say today i have found out more about africa, then i did in my entire life. but i have a few questions, is the givt doing something to cut down on the crime rate ?
what's the nightlife like in cape town ?
cheers